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French-English Translation Forum

This is the place to post your translation requests in English or French and to help others with your skills and knowledge. Important: Always give the context of your enquiry!
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Pauvre / propre » answer
by Catesse (AU), 2011-09-11, 08:14  Spam?  
Although GL 9 makes provision for tagging French adjectives as attributive, predicative and postpositional, these tags are not pre-programmed, and they do not seem to be used. With a few French adjectives that change their meaning according to their position (such as pauvre, propre), it is vital to indicate the distinction. Has there been any previous discussion on this? If so, with what effect?
I don't think we discussed it...  #617788
by admin (AT), 2011-09-11, 16:47  Spam?  
...but I guess a [postpos.] tag would definitely make sense, if y'all agree, that is.
I agree. A [postpos.] tag would be a great addition  #617879
by romain (FR), 2011-09-12, 09:49  Spam?  
ja  #617893
by Wenz (DE), 2011-09-12, 11:03  Spam?  
Three tags  #617899
by Catesse (AU), 2011-09-12, 11:50  Spam?  
A great number of French adjectives follow the noun. It would be quite a burden to add either [attr.] [pred.] or [postpos.] [pred.] to all adjectives. It might be a help. but it would be a real burden.
I would push using the tags in the few cases where the position changes the meaning. In other cases, I think that it is up to the group of people doing the greater part of the actual work to make this decision. Although I have done a great deal of work, I would not count myself in this group, as I think that my French is not quite good enough.
(The use of tags could not be made obligatory in all languages. In re Polish: it would not be possible to use these tags there, as the position does not depend entirely on the adjective, but also on the individual noun, and there are so many idioms and exceptions that a tag would be virtually meaningless.)
Tags for cases where the position matters.  #617933
by Paul (AT), 2011-09-12, 14:51  Spam?  
I would add "[postpos.]" for "adjectif postposé", and maybe "[antépos.]" for "adjectif antéposé" to stress the opposite for cases where such clarification is necessary. I'll add them if no objections are raised.

If we use these tags only for cases where they are needed to get the meaning of the term, do we need [attr.] and [pred.] at all?
Predicate  #617934
by Catesse (AU), 2011-09-12, 15:05  Spam?  
Are there adjectives in French that can be used only in the predicate? No example occurs to me, but somebody else may know better.
Adjectifs prédicatifs = see link  - 1st -  it is a PDF to be downloaded -  2nd - read it if you dare !!!  #618380
by matthieu- (FR/US), Last modified: 2011-09-15, 02:19  Spam?  
Google: adjectif prédicatif

now - it is quite complex  but helpful if and when you understand :
Predicate  #618393
by Catesse (AU), 2011-09-15, 05:12  Spam?  
Even if I could understand it, I think that this is more than I ever wanted or needed to know. :-)
Just: how should the question be handled in dict.?
Do you differenciate each adjective in English / Deutsch / other language ?  #618406
by matthieu- (FR/US), 2011-09-15, 08:49  Spam?  
here is all we're taught - in good old French grammar
about adjectives ... from C.P. to UNI (post Baccalaureate - short for university)
Wikipedia(FR): Adjectif_ind%C3%A9fini
Wikipedia(FR): Adjectif_d%C3%A9monstratif
Wikipedia(FR): Adjectif_num%C3%A9ral
Wikipedia(FR): D%C3%A9terminant_%28grammaire%29

most of what is discussed here is - University +++ Level   in  /  and  /   or   VERY VERY Advanced French GRAMMATICAL Studies -

[postpos.] and [antépos.] will be useful for disambiguating the different meaning an adjective can wear - the rest is just so optional that it can be entered by hand, if the author of the said entry wants it there....  

So yes, to answer Catesse's  question about predicative adjectives, some if not all  'taste' related adjectives are / can be  predicative, and more commun ones, like the color related ones, depending the noun they're 'brothering' with and the context, or meaning they will take.
Attr. Post-pos, Pred.  #618411
by Catesse (AU), 2011-09-15, 09:19  Spam?  
This has been discussed at great length in the DE-EN forum, and the outcome, as far as I last saw it, was a bit fluffy. As I remember it: if an adjective can be used both as an attributive and as a predicate, nothing is done. If it can be used only postpositionally, it is marked as such. There are other combinations of usage available, and it seems to be left to the judgment of the contributors as to whether or not they are marked. A lot of the sites take no notice at all, perhaps because the problem does not arise, or perhaps because nobody has given it any consideration. Or perhaps because the usage is so irregular that it is pointless to indicate it.
My point in this case was to draw attention to the small number of cases in French where the adjective actually changes its meaning according to its position....
» show full text
adjectifs et leur positions (thème/rhème)   #618414
by matthieu- (FR/US), 2011-09-15, 10:00  Spam?  
I think this article covers the subject... even more than I would like things to be !!!

The context is the key to a good translation if it is obvious enough...Already on a 'one level' text/context it can be hard to get.
And, sometime the writer did not use the most appropriate word and causes the chain reaction....
maybe politique should have been replaced by diplomatique in the first place....
Tags added: [postpos.], [antépos.]  #618441
by Paul (AT), 2011-09-15, 13:12  Spam?  
I added "[postpos.]" for "adjectif postposé" and "[antépos.]" for "adjectif antéposé" for the cases where such clarification is necessary (when position matters).
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